ID for Skippers from the French Alps.

[Nigel Kiteley]

Myself and Ben have just returned from six days in the French Alps where we encountered 58 species plus a few we are unsure of including these two skippers.

The first one was at photographed at around 1000m in the Mercantour National Park.. I was thinking Cirisi for this individual although the altitude seems wrong so could it be amoricanuus? I would like the opinion of others with more knowledgeable.

The second skipper was photographed on the Northern side of the Col de Cayolle at a height also of around 2100m. This one looks like carlinae to me but again I seek the advice of the resident experts.

[Padfield]

Hi Nigel. I was sort of hoping Roger would get in first here, because despite the quality of the pictures I'm not sure about either of these.

I imagine the first one has to be armoricanus but the altitude seems to preclude even that. From its appearance, armoricanus is good.

The second one is more of a mystery to me. The brick red underside with bright orange veins rules out a lot of species. Your guess of carlinae might be inspired - but if so, it is an anomalous individual. Females do often have very weak upperside markings but the cell terminator is always, in my Swiss experience, even more obviously 'c' shaped in the female than the male. I've never seen alveus with that coloured underside hindwing - and it's a little high for alveus (but only just - they fly up to about 1800m on my local patch and are said to reach 2000m.

Let's hope Roger or someone else can find something more decisive. My reply will, at least, have kept the thread alive!

Guy

[Roger Gibbons]

Hello Nigel,

We met at the EIG meeting last year, did we not?

This illustrates why Pyrgus are so difficult. I did get to look at these images (nice to have clear upper and under-sides to work from) on Thursday night when I was in Troyes en route back to the UK, where I am now and with reliable internet access.

Well, they must be something. Starting with #2, my feeling is that you are right about carlinae. I have seen females as weakly marked as this (here is one: http://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/html ... -_carlinae_)
The underside has three pointers which strongly suggest carlinae to me:
1. the markings, especially in the discal band are rather narrow relatively to other Pyrgus (c.f. serratulae where the discal s4/5 mark is always rather wide).
2. the rectangular mark on v5 is just about neat enough for carlinae, with a fairly clean internal edge, again relative to other Pyrgus.
3. the colour is a rather reddish hue, which I tend to associate with carlinae, and seemingly supported by the older taxonomy that says cirsii is a subspecies of carlinae, as cirsii is always notably reddish.

#2 was rather more straightforward than #1, and #2 wasn’t definitive. So here are some thoughts on #1.
I feel the marks are too heavy and the altitude too high for armoricanus. So what’s left? Serratulae? Nope, it can be heavily marked but not like this, and there are several features on the unh that rule out serratulae. I think the choices are – unlikely as it may seem – alveus accretus or bellieri. I believe I have seen accretus (image here: http://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/html ... mes_8Jul10_)
I also have relatively little experience of bellieri but, from what I have seen, this could well be a contender. The location and altitude don’t preclude bellieri. Here are three reasons why this could be:
1. the upf marks are strong and quite jagged, a good indicator of bellieri, although other species can have a little “jaggedness” but not quite to the same extent as male bellieri. The uph marks are quite strong as well, also indicative of bellieri and ruling out several other contenders.
2. the unh discal mark in s1 is unusually large and non-leaning. In my limited experience, this is strongly indicative of bellieri.
3. the abdominal hair-tuft in bellieri is extensive at the lower part of the end of the male abdomen, notably more so than for alveus. This appears to me to be true here.

Unlikely as it seems, the evidence tends to suggest to suggest #1 is bellieri. I always feel the burden of evidence is stronger when one of the options is a rare one.

I put these thoughts forward as contributions rather than any form of definitive rationale. Feel free to disagree on any points where I may be wrong.

Roger

[Padfield]

Yes, I like bellieri for the first one now. I can't remember why I rejected it myself - probably because of the brightness of the underside. I suspect that's why I rejected alveus (agg.) too. It is classic armoricanus in tone. It must be one of this group (armoricanus, bellieri, alveus agg.), and I'm definitely coming round to bellieri.

For reference, here are uppersides and undersides of bellieri, taken in the Pyrenees:


(male on right)


(male on left)

The tone of the underside is very similar to yours - I had remembered it being more green. The very exaggerated anal tuft seen in the second picture might be due to the mating position.

This male shows the tuft(s) from above:



I used to think alveus could show similar tuftiness from above but have more recently begun to wonder if bellieri is commoner in the Pyrenees than I thought, and that some of my supposed observations of alveus related really to bellieri.

II'm inclined to agree with Roger on the second one, too, though I still think this was an inspired identification of yours, Nigel! I was up a mountain with carlinae just the other day and I saw nothing remotely like this!

Guy

[Nigel Kiteley]

Thank you Guy and Roger for your valued input, most appreciated.

I am thrilled that the first individual is considered belleri as this is a lifer for me. I am also pleased that my notion of carlinae for the second one was correct, it means I am actually learning something, with the help of Roger's excellent pyrgus identification pages of course .

[John Chapple]

Hi Nigel.

Something I was shown by Philippe Bricaire, an excellent lepidopterist from France that helps separate belleri from the main two confusion species alveus and armoricanus is that on the uhw of belleri the white patches have a noticable fine dark border as if outlined with a fine pen. This can clearly be seen on your photo. Although This feature is found on other Pyrgus species combined with the large white hair tuft it is a clear pointer to belleri. So if in doubt, look at the underside

Philippe's website...... http://www.fleetingwonders.com/

[Nigel Kiteley]

Thank you for the information John, most helpful.