Tufted/Oriental MS

[Tony Moore]

Could someone kindly ID this Skipper for me? Shot early May in Northern Greece.

Tony M.

[Pete Eeles]

I think that the prominent white spot on the upperside hindwing would lead me to Tufted Marbled Skipper (Carchamodus flocciferus). Guy or Roger will no doubt confirm or correct!

[Edit] I notice that, in Lafranchis, he says "Distinguishing between these two species is often difficult without examination of the genitalia".

Cheers,

- Pete

[David M]

My first instinct was to scream 'Tuftie' but given I've never seen Oriental Marbled Skipper and that it looks very similar in Tolman & Lewington I wouldn't want to commit definitively.

[Padfield]

I incline towards orientalis. The reasons are firstly the general colour, which is more grey and less rich than the flocciferus near me, and secondly - more importantly - the reticulate appearance of the hindwing towards the outer margin, recalling baeticus. I've never seen this reticulation in flocciferus.

No huge confidence. But if I saw this in a field in Switzerland I would certainly think it was a bit weird.

Guy

[John Vergo]

I would say this is not a orientalis, it is not "gray" enough, if it is a flocciferus or baeticus I can´t say because I have not seen any of these, but I have seen a lot of orientalis
here a orientalis from Lesvos 2015

[Tony Moore]

Many thanks, everyone for your input. John, I don't think baeticus occurs in Northern Greece, where this was found. Also, orientalis is quite common in the area and, I believe, rather earlier than flocciferus.

Tony M.

[Padfield]

I would say this is not a orientalis, it is not "gray" enough

Interesting. If you mean the rather bright grey that seems to veil parts of the forewing, that is even brighter and greyer in flocciferus. I meant the whole tone of the wings, which is distinctly greyer in Tony's insect than in yours even. It's always subjective from photos, and I take your judgment, based on seeing a lot of orientalis - but similarly, living in a flocciferus playground, I can't see this as flocciferus!

I guess the important thing is that he knows what he is - or at least, who he should mate with.

Guy

[Roger Gibbons]

I'm with Guy here. This isn't flocciferus to me, despite the uph discal marks, which look more baeticus than flocciferus in my eyes. The colour of flocciferus can vary from almost charcoal grey to brown. The colours of baeticus (as being the likely parallel species to orientalis) vary according to brood, but I don't have any books with me at the moment (later brood more brown?). So colour isn't necessarily definitive.

I have seen quite a few baeticus (some recently with Chris J as he posted), and if I saw this in Var I would be strongly inclined to baeticus.

It is a tricky group though. As we nearly always say, an underside would be fairly definitive.

Roger

[Tony Moore]

Thanks, Roger, for your comments - I'll put it down as likely orientalis.

Tony.