MrSp0ck

[Susie]

Excellent reports. I feel a visit is in order tomorrow

[MrSp0ck]

[quote="Wurzel" Am I correct in assuming that the HB Glannies are related to the population that used to be at Wrecclesham? I was just wondering as I found a slightly similar ab there back in 2012.../quote]

There may be a remnant of the Wrecclesham population at HB, but its probably very low, as only 3 Glanvilles were seen in 2013 from the original 2011 [27] Wrecclesham larvae. They would have to be the direct offspring of these 3 and not the last gene swap in 2014. The form looks like it is related to the IOW 1929 ab stock as its very similar to the illustrated one.

[Wurzel]

Right, it doesn't seem likely then, must just be a fresh aberrant, just an idea
Have a goodun

Wurzel

[MrSp0ck]

looking at the genes for the ab.

Half of the larvae from the mother will be carriers, and a few normal and the ab. so from the number of larvae from the egg batch hopefully a few more will appear again this year, or next year when the carriers mate with eachother.

[Pete Eeles]

Another nice fritillary ab! The crazy freezing cold/boiling hot spring we had looks likely to have had an effect

I think this is a genetical ab, rather than caused by weather.

I'd be interested in why you think that, Martin! There are quite a few well-known aberrations (e.g. Purple Emperor ab. iole) where, unless you are able to either artificially induce a temperature shock or rear through a number of generations and cross-breed the resulting offspring, then it is very difficult to know if the cause of aberration is genetic or environmental.

Cheers,

- Pete

[Pete Eeles]

looking at the genes for the ab.

Half of the larvae from the mother will be carriers, and a few normal and the ab. so from the number of larvae from the egg batch hopefully a few more will appear again this year, or next year when the carriers mate with eachother.

I think you're suggesting a recessive gene, Martin?

Cheers,

- Pete

[MrSp0ck]

I think you're suggesting a recessive gene, Martin?

Cheers,

- Pete

Hopefully just one recessive gene, and not several or it will be a one off event unless it pairs with another one of the same ab.

Ive not done any temp experiments, but everything that goes through under butterfly house conditions, has been pretty normal despite temps up in the 30- 40 oC range, but genetical variants have been constant in several species, some made to order, most of the work has been on Heliconius species, forms and hybrids though, but some British species have been in the same greenhouses from time to time.

Made to order Heliconius erato, by breeding 2 different forms together. About 40 similar offspring were produced all with rays and hindwing stripe.

Some of the very rare plants i have, have been used for foodplant experiments, with Passiflorists and RBG Kew. Passiflora poslae was one, it has mimic ova on the young tendrils, and it was wondered what species it was defending against, most probably H. melpomene. Im lucky to have 4 greenhouses for various work. One was moving the laying preferences of the females to other groups of passiflora, in the last instar larvae stage. H. erato were moved from decaloba section to passiflora section, and from decaloba/decaloba to decaloba/xerogona which the females plastered with eggs as if it was Passiflora biflora. The egglaying females tap the leaves with a BBRRRRR noise when testing the foodplants before flying up to the parts they want to lay on. We think they are causing disturbance to the surface and checking it with what they had eaten in the last instar. In all the experiments they moved to that species/hybrid passiflora despite having lots of the proper foodplant availiable. I give them a wide choice as have 200 species and very many hybrid passilfora here.

I have discovered a New Species of Passiflora [in Colombia] without leaving Croydon, its growing at Kew, here and a couple of other places, and doesnt key out, but cant be named until it flowers. It was tested with Heliconius sara and they plastered it with ova, so it helped confirm the section of passiflora it is in. The fact it hasnt been found again in Colombia is worrying, as another unknown Aristolochia in the same seed batch is extinct in the wild, but survives at Kew from one of my seeds, this passiflora could also be extinct now in the wild.

Unknown Passiflora [Colombia] RBG Kew February 2016 [1999-3621 Passiflora auriculata ( ) Donated by: WIML Kew (Glasshouses)]

The temp variants ive seen tend to be one offs, as we had a black peacock with silver borders in one of the very hot spells, it was mistaken at first for a Camberwell Beauty until it settled and was examined closely, if it had bred i would have expected another one by now. Our Gatekeeper form has occured several times over 20 years or so.

[Pete Eeles]

I think you're suggesting a recessive gene, Martin?

Hopefully just one recessive gene, and not several or it will be a one off event unless it pairs with another one of the same ab.

Unless it's caused by temperature shock

Ive not done any temp experiments, but everything that goes through under butterfly house conditions, has been pretty normal despite temps up in the 30- 40 oC range

Temperature shock is normally due to excessive cold, such as a pupa being caught in a frost pocket. There is also the concept of chemical shock with some breeders artificially injecting chemicals into newly-formed pupae to see what effect it has; I can't see the point of this myself since, unlike temperate shock, some of these chemicals would never by ingested by a larva naturally, to the best of my knowledge.

Congrats on the Passiflora discovery!

Cheers,

- Pete

[MrSp0ck]

I hope I havnt lost many of the readers by being too complex in my diary re passiflora and heliconius.

[MrSp0ck]

I think you're suggesting a recessive gene, Martin?

Hopefully just one recessive gene, and not several or it will be a one off event unless it pairs with another one of the same ab.

Unless it's caused by temperature shock

- Pete[/quote]

As it was one of 50 pupae within 6 inches of eachother, pupated the same couple of days, under the same temp conditions as the 49 others, i would have expected most of them to be the same ab. if it was temperature shock. If it hadnt dissapeared while being photographed it would have mated with a few stock females, before returning to HB a couple of days later for the rest of its life and hopefully pairing again there. As it was from the back-up captive breeding stock batch, part of my work as Glanville Species Champion, we have lost too many forms in recent years, eg Silver-Studded Blue cretaceus [Kent & Surrey], I wouldnt want too loose another on my watch.

[Pete Eeles]

As it was one of 50 pupae within 6 inches of eachother.

Oh - I didn't realise it was captive-reared!

As it was from the back-up captive breeding stock batch, part of my work as Glanville Species Champion.

I also didn't realise that the population was being kept topped up with captive rearing.

we have lost too many forms in recent years, eg Silver-Studded Blue cretaceus [Kent & Surrey], I wouldnt want too loose another on my watch.

Understood - but this isn't a form and has no conservation status I believe, given that it's an introduction. Having said that, I'm sure there are plenty of people who appreciate seeing this species without a lengthy (and costly) trip to the Isle of Wight.

Cheers,

- Pete

[MrSp0ck]

Its being used as a back up population for the species on the Isle of Wight, since 2013 when it was very nearly lost there, as only 13 larval webs were found in Autumn 2013 on the IOW. It was important to get the Wrecclesham genes out of the population so if it ever becomes extinct on IOW there is a population ready for re-introduction. Natural England have asked for work at Hutchinsons Bank to improve it for Glanvilles and keep the population healthy. The top up is only done from the back up [back up] population as they are not needed that year for IOW [ hopefully always the case] and now have nowhere else to go with the demise of the other mainland populations, and are not needed for the captive breeding. [Im sure people here would rather them being put on HB than killed or given to collectors [they cant be sold as they are protected]]

Its similar to the work being done with PBF, SPBF and Marsh Fritillary all which have Captive Breeding Programmes, and being put back into Sites/Reserves as larvae and adults.

[MrSp0ck]

no conservation status I believe, given that it's an introduction.
- Pete

Lots of Introduced populations have conservation value.

[Pete Eeles]

Thanks Martin - I was completely unaware of this.

Its being used as a back up population for the species on the Isle of Wight.

Presumably, we know the origins of the population now at HB?

It was important to get the Wrecclesham genes out of the population.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If the only individuals are originally from Wrecclesham, then it's impossible to remove the genes being inherited (of course)!

Cheers,

- Pete

[MrSp0ck]

Its now hopefully 100% IOW stock

only wild offspring of the 3 2013 ex-Wrecclesham stock would be in the population, hopefully there were none I was not involved in the original wrecclesham to HB introduction, and we were worried on the origin of that stock.

There has been a gene swap in 2014 which got it to 100% IOW hopefully. Another is underway with incoming into quarantine this winter, something we have to do that IOW dont.

[Pete Eeles]

no conservation status I believe, given that it's an introduction.
- Pete

So the Large Blue, has no Conservation status as that is an Introduction as well, and after all the money and time spent on it over the years.

I mean that the Glanville has no conservation status on the basis of it being a form, since it isn't a form. I must admit, I am rather surprised that a colony of Glanvilles of unknown origin (unless you tell me otherwise) at Wrecclesham is given the same conservation status as the genuine article. If I were to acquire some Heath Fritillary from (say) Hungary and dump them in my local woods, I wouldn't expect them to have any conservation status (for example!).

The Large Blue is different since it is protected whatever its origin, given that it's threatened globally.

Cheers,

- Pete

[Pete Eeles]

Its now hopefully 100% IOW stock

only wild offspring of the 3 2013 ex-Wrecclesham stock would be in the population, hopefully there were none I was not involved in the original wrecclesham introduction, and we were worried on the origin of that stock.

There has been a gene swap in 2014 which got it to 100% IOW hopefully. Another is underway with incoming into quarantine this winter, something we have to do that IOW dont.

So are you saying that the HB stock is from IOW, with a few individuals from Wrecclesham?

Cheers,

- Pete

[MrSp0ck]

Its now hopefully 100% IOW stock

only wild offspring of the 3 2013 ex-Wrecclesham stock would be in the population, hopefully there were none I was not involved in the original wrecclesham introduction, and we were worried on the origin of that stock.

There has been a gene swap in 2014 which got it to 100% IOW hopefully. Another is underway with incoming into quarantine this winter, something we have to do that IOW dont.

So are you saying that the HB stock is from IOW, with a few individuals from Wrecclesham?

Cheers,

- Pete

We only had 3 sightings of adults in 2013, as there were no pictures of any of them, we do not know if they were all the same sex, they were seen in transect weeks 9,10 [both males or the same one] and week 12(Last Day)[female] i had a very good look at this one, but was photographing my upperside clouded yellow at the time i disturbed the Glanville and lost both.

So its very unlikely that any Wrecclesham is now in the population. As there were 3 weeks between any possible pairing of those 2 or 3

It helped with its protection at HB that people beleived it was still an ex Wrecclesham population while it was still a very small population of between 15 and 60 adults 2014-2015.

[Pete Eeles]

Thanks Martin,

It helped with its protection at HB that people beleived it was still an ex Wrecclesham population while it was still a very small population of between 15 and 60 adults 2014-2015.

The 2013/14 gene swap had the widest possible gene pool from the IOW population with a few larvae from the availiable webs and a total of about 40 larvae in all, and 6 were lost to Cotesia melitaearum in quarantine.

In the latest Surrey Skipper, at the end of your writeup on Glanville Fritillary, it says "Butterfly Conservation does NOT support this unofficial release", before half a page from Martin Warren on BC's view in general on unofficial releases.

However, you seem to suggest that stock was taken from IOW webs and introduced into Hutchinson's Bank as part of a coordinated effort to keep a breeding colony going on the mainland that could, if it were ever needed, be used to replenish IOW stock.

These two positions seem to contradict one another, or am I correct in assuming that this is not being coordinated by BC (and, if not, then who)?

Cheers,

- Pete